58 replies to this topic

[FuriousRGD]

I'm sure this topic has been handled before, but I don't see another thread specifically regarding this issue in the top 5 pages of this forum unless I missed it. Anyway, here we go.

In my opinion, the key to balancing this game's weapons systems is centered around heat management and having serious consequences associated with overheating.

OVERHEATING CONSEQUENCES IN TABLE TOP

In the table top game, which I played religiously when I was in high school, there was a serious threat to the mech when you overheat.

We have these effects in the tabletop game:

1) At initial levels you had to avoid automatic shutdown. The further you overheated, the harder this became to override until you hit a threshold and automatically shut down.

MEANWHILE:

2) The more you overheated, the less accurate your weapons fire became. At certain intervals it gets harder and harder to hit targets as your targeting computer struggled.

3) The more you overheated, the slower your mech became. At certain intervals your mechs speed and ability to maneuver were hampered as the powerplant struggled.

4) At certain points, if you remained overheated, there was even a chance that any ammo you had would get so hot that it would explode, doing severe damage to your internal structure.

IN MWO AS IT STANDS TODAY:

The consequences to overheating almost exclusively center on 1 above, threat of shutdown.

As a result, there is not enough of a threat of serious consequences for overhreating.

I see over and over in matches that weapon boats just say "**** it" and alpha strike all weapons at will, knowing they will overheat and shut down, but they also know that the only real consequence is that they have to wait a few seconds to alpha strike again.

Recently PGI added doing internal damage starting at 120%, but that is not enough of a threat or consequence.

MWO players today seem more concerned about KDR than winning as a team, so they alpha strike away as long as they can take a few players with them.

SO, ADD MORE SIGNIFICANT CONSEQUENCES FOR HEAT

Battletech has always been centered on heat management. The threat has to be so serious that it forces players to play as the game was intended: creating weapons groups and cycling these groups in order to MANAGE HEAT.

I think that more of the heating consequences of the tabletop game can be added to the game in order to create another level of strategic gameplay depth to the game.

[jeffsw6]

You have to realize that heat-effects will cripple brawlers and will basically have no impact on snipers.

The problem with the game right now is snipers are the most powerful role, and brawlers the least.

I'm not saying heat-effects are foolish, but that the meta-game needs to be fixed, and implementing heat-effects right now would make it worse.

[FuriousRGD]

jeffsw6, on 11 July 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

You have to realize that heat-effects will cripple brawlers and will basically have no impact on snipers.

The problem with the game right now is snipers are the most powerful role, and brawlers the least.

I'm not saying heat-effects are foolish, but that the meta-game needs to be fixed, and implementing heat-effects right now would make it worse.

At any range you *should* have to cycle weapons if they have to manage heat effects. Firing 4 PPCs should have serious consequences regardless of range.

Sure, overheating consequences are less at maximum ranges but maps aren't that big in this game except for a few and in all cases there is tactical cover to use to close distances, just as it is in the tabletop.

Long range weapons are supposed to have disadvantages to offset that advantage. PPCs are supposed to generate tremendous heat and reg PPC has min range. Gause rifles are heavy, take up tons of crit slots (made of glass, easily destroyed) and are ammo weapons with low ammo only modest ammo per ton.

Saying that certain weapons having advantage at long range is broken design is not true by itself.

IMO PPCs need to generate more heat in this game in line with what I said above.

Edited by FuriousRGD, 11 July 2013 - 08:10 AM.

[FuriousRGD]

For example:

PPC
Tabletop heat: 10 heat per shot. MWO is 8 heat.

ERPPC
tabletop heat: 15 heat per shot. MWO is 11 heat.

This should make these weapons dangerous to alpha strike if there were actual heat consequences.

[Donnie Silveray]

In lore example, the Clan Warhawk (Masakari) strots out with 4 ERPPCs. It is specifically said it can't fire all at once else it'd shutdown/blow up. This is a clan mech that can't handle 4 ERPPCs, granted it's just fluff and lore. Still, I don't think an IS mech should be able to wield 4 PPC ERPPC without having some kind of discernable punishment. The simplest way is just to simply nerf their heat, make it higher.

Secondly I agree we need these overheating penalties though I have to say that heat management in MWO is rather rough in STABLE builds. My Atlas regularly overheats if I abuse its 4MLs, even with many double heat sinks due to me constantly straddling 80%+ heat threshold in the middle of a battle. My heat capacity is quite impressive but my mechs can't dissipate for their lives at this point. I don't want to endorse any specific numbers, but there needs to be more heat penalties and effects to dissuade high burst alpha builds in the mechlab before going into battle.

[Unbound Inferno]

FuriousRGD, on 11 July 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

For example:

PPC
Tabletop heat: 10 heat per shot. MWO is 8 heat.

ERPPC
tabletop heat: 15 heat per shot. MWO is 11 heat.

This should make these weapons dangerous to alpha strike if there were actual heat consequences.

In Battkletech the heat concequences were really straight forward.

More heat, harder it was to aim and you moved slower. You had a chance of an ammo explosion under 100% heat too - but I'm willing to let that go.


in MWO we ought to have it as this;

Increasing heat adds a reticle shake. Higher heat, more shake. Overheating permanently adds a small shake every time, so overheat enough and you'll never shoot straight.

Depending on how hot you run determines how fast you can move. At the point of overheating you are really sluuggish. I'd make it so at most you'd suffer a 50% movement speed at 100% heat. Overheating adds that % overheated to that as a permanent penalty, maxing out at 50%.

Overheating at 100% begins to add internal damage. Hotter you run beyond that increases the damage received.


We add those three (with fixing PPC heat) you'll find the game vastly improved.

[FuriousRGD]

Donnie Silveray, on 11 July 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

In lore example, the Clan Warhawk (Masakari) strots out with 4 ERPPCs. It is specifically said it can't fire all at once else it'd shutdown/blow up. This is a clan mech that can't handle 4 ERPPCs, granted it's just fluff and lore. Still, I don't think an IS mech should be able to wield 4 PPC ERPPC without having some kind of discernable punishment. The simplest way is just to simply nerf their heat, make it higher.

Secondly I agree we need these overheating penalties though I have to say that heat management in MWO is rather rough in STABLE builds. My Atlas regularly overheats if I abuse its 4MLs, even with many double heat sinks due to me constantly straddling 80%+ heat threshold in the middle of a battle. My heat capacity is quite impressive but my mechs can't dissipate for their lives at this point. I don't want to endorse any specific numbers, but there needs to be more heat penalties and effects to dissuade high burst alpha builds in the mechlab before going into battle.

Exactly. Clan ERPPCs, if I remember correctly, also generate 15 heat per shot they just do 15 damage instead of 10. Firing 4 ERPPCs in an alpha strike is 60 instant heat. Even clan weaponry doesn't avoid having to manage heat or face serious consequences.

[Miken]

FuriousRGD, on 11 July 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

For example:

PPC
Tabletop heat: 10 heat per shot. MWO is 8 heat.

ERPPC
tabletop heat: 15 heat per shot. MWO is 11 heat.

This should make these weapons dangerous to alpha strike if there were actual heat consequences.

TT recharge 10sec for all weapons!
Compare EPS not heal

Edited by Miken, 11 July 2013 - 08:35 AM.

[FuriousRGD]

Unbound Inferno, on 11 July 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

In Battkletech the heat concequences were really straight forward.

More heat, harder it was to aim and you moved slower. You had a chance of an ammo explosion under 100% heat too - but I'm willing to let that go.


in MWO we ought to have it as this;

Increasing heat adds a reticle shake. Higher heat, more shake. Overheating permanently adds a small shake every time, so overheat enough and you'll never shoot straight.

Depending on how hot you run determines how fast you can move. At the point of overheating you are really sluuggish. I'd make it so at most you'd suffer a 50% movement speed at 100% heat. Overheating adds that % overheated to that as a permanent penalty, maxing out at 50%.

Overheating at 100% begins to add internal damage. Hotter you run beyond that increases the damage received.


We add those three (with fixing PPC heat) you'll find the game vastly improved.

Exactly the line of thinking I was trying to point out! I'm not saying that what you are presenting is the total solution, but you are pointing out ways that there can be actual consequences to overheating.

The key is to create consequences that make players want to avoid overheating and cycle weapons.

For example, the first alpha strike you do will cause consequences. When you come out of shutdown, you are still severely overheated so you should have slowed movement, reticle shake or slowed reticle/convergence, etc to make PINPOINT alpha striking a second time very, very hard.

[Sybreed]

the key? not really. That won't prevent anyone from putting a 40dmg alpha on one component of my mech.

[Angel of Annihilation]

FuriousRGD, on 11 July 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

I'm sure this topic has been handled before, but I don't see another thread specifically regarding this issue in the top 5 pages of this forum unless I missed it. Anyway, here we go.

In my opinion, the key to balancing this game's weapons systems is centered around heat management and having serious consequences associated with overheating.

OVERHEATING CONSEQUENCES IN TABLE TOP

In the table top game, which I played religiously when I was in high school, there was a serious threat to the mech when you overheat.

We have these effects in the tabletop game:

1) At initial levels you had to avoid automatic shutdown. The further you overheated, the harder this became to override until you hit a threshold and automatically shut down.

MEANWHILE:

2) The more you overheated, the less accurate your weapons fire became. At certain intervals it gets harder and harder to hit targets as your targeting computer struggled.

3) The more you overheated, the slower your mech became. At certain intervals your mechs speed and ability to maneuver were hampered as the powerplant struggled.

4) At certain points, if you remained overheated, there was even a chance that any ammo you had would get so hot that it would explode, doing severe damage to your internal structure.

IN MWO AS IT STANDS TODAY:

The consequences to overheating almost exclusively center on 1 above, threat of shutdown.

As a result, there is not enough of a threat of serious consequences for overhreating.

I see over and over in matches that weapon boats just say "**** it" and alpha strike all weapons at will, knowing they will overheat and shut down, but they also know that the only real consequence is that they have to wait a few seconds to alpha strike again.

Recently PGI added doing internal damage starting at 120%, but that is not enough of a threat or consequence.

MWO players today seem more concerned about KDR than winning as a team, so they alpha strike away as long as they can take a few players with them.

SO, ADD MORE SIGNIFICANT CONSEQUENCES FOR HEAT

Battletech has always been centered on heat management. The threat has to be so serious that it forces players to play as the game was intended: creating weapons groups and cycling these groups in order to MANAGE HEAT.

I think that more of the heating consequences of the tabletop game can be added to the game in order to create another level of strategic gameplay depth to the game.

Sure as long about you bring back the abiliy to develop heat neutral builds like say a Dual ER PPC build that uses 16 DHS to make them heat neutral.

Honestly, I don't want my QD running enough DHS to sink a battleship and a rather limited armament to blow up because of the screwy heat mechanics currently in game combined with heat based concequences.

For example, I run a 2 LL, 2 ML, 2 Steak build that in table top would produce 30 heat maximum if I constantly mashed the alpha button. I also run 16 DHS which according to table top standards should be able to disappate up to 32 heat. In TT it would be consdier a heat neutral build. However in MWO, it can and DOES overheat if I really lay on the firepower and it will do it rather quickly.

If we add concequences, not only am I already penalized due the fact that my weapon can cause me to overheat when they shouldn't but I am double penalized by the concequences of that happening.

Hell we start making it work like this then we are back to boating MLs to reduce heat like back in Closed Beta before DHS were introduced and heat reduced on alot of weapons.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 11 July 2013 - 08:48 AM.

[Khobai]

The reality is that gradual heat penalties will just make the alphastrike style of play even more common.

[Sybreed]

Khobai, on 11 July 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

The reality is that gradual heat penalties will just make the alphastrike style of play even more common.

if I'm not mistaken, the penalties are there to promote chain firing, they would only occur WHEN you alpha strike

[Unbound Inferno]

Sybreed, on 11 July 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

the key? not really. That won't prevent anyone from putting a 40dmg alpha on one component of my mech.

If your reticle is shaking cause your at 60% heat and can't land a sniping shot, ti changes alot.

[FuriousRGD]

Sybreed, on 11 July 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

the key? not really. That won't prevent anyone from putting a 40dmg alpha on one component of my mech.

In the tabletop you can create one-shot wonders but if you want to fire more than once or twice before being crippled you wouldn't want to. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Viktor Drake, on 11 July 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Sure as long about you bring back the abiliy to develp heat neutral builds like say a Dual ER PPC build that uses 16 DHS to make them heat neutral.

I agree. I mean there should always be ways to create heat neutral builds. 2 ERPPCs is not game breaking and, as you say, you have to put significant tonnage to create that situation with heat sinks.

I'm not saying to bring weapon heat generation up to tabletop as a solution on its own. I dont know an exact formula on how to do it.

I think PPC and ERPPC should do more heat to start but I firmly believe that having heating heat consequences that are actually serious can change the mindset that alpha striking is tons of reward/low risk. We need to turn it around so that alpha striking or boating is high risk, high reward.

[Sybreed]

Unbound Inferno, on 11 July 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

If your reticle is shaking cause your at 60% heat and can't land a sniping shot, ti changes alot.

but the first alpha will never miss, that's a problem. It's only a band-aid solution to the real problem that is convergence.

[FuriousRGD]

Khobai, on 11 July 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

The reality is that gradual heat penalties will just make the alphastrike style of play even more common.

I disagree. Alpha strike obviously raises your heat levels to the max heat output of all weapons. Assuming that you don't devote significant resources (heat sinks) to creating a more heat-neutral build, the threat of INSTANTLY facing overheating consequences should have the opposite effect on player thinking.

[FuriousRGD]

Sybreed, on 11 July 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

but the first alpha will never miss, that's a problem. It's only a band-aid solution to the real problem that is convergence.

Its not the only solution. I just say that significant heat consequences are a key to solving things.

If your mech fires 4 PPCs it should instantly generate 40 heat PLUS heat for movement in a split second. The potential for reward is still there but that is not a competitive build because after you fire that first shot, assuming you didn't dump everything for heat sinks, you should be crippled at least temporarily (for more than 3 or 4 seconds) after one shot. You should have instant shutdown followed by lingering effects as you cool down. Also, a 4PPC boat has a minimum range.

Firing 4 ERPPCs in table top is impossible without totally screwing yourself. 60 instant heat plus movement heat.

Edited by FuriousRGD, 11 July 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[Roland]

Viktor Drake, on 11 July 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

For example, I run a 2 LL, 2 ML, 2 Steak build that in table top would produce 30 heat maximum if I constantly mashed the alpha button. I also run 16 DHS which according to table top standards should be able to disappate up to 32 heat. In TT it would be consdier a heat neutral build. However in MWO, it can and DOES overheat if I really lay on the firepower and it will do it rather quickly.

"Constantly mashing the alpha button" in Tabletop means firing your weapons once every 10 seconds.

That mech will be just as heat neutral in MWO if you choose to fire it at the same rate.

The only issue is that MWO allows you, as the pilot, to CHOOSE to fire it more often if you want.

[Tezcatli]

I agree. They do need more consequences with overheating. Shouldn't just be something you walk off. And I also agree that PPCs heat need to go back to their table top values. It's like they're being stubborn on what should be a simple and obvious fix. Just nerf the heat on PPCs. If they make the heat 10 on a PPC then I would even say reverse the cooldown nerf it got.